Regarding Order of Trauma and Sources
*I wrote this in good faith, and the the response short of one person denying everything in front of him have been wonderful.
And now, I'm out. It's been a blast browsing and semi-posting to this sub. But it's very clear that the majority (as seen by upvotes) far prefer non-sourced claims over actual proof.
Thanks again, good luck solving!
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First off, I want to make it clear that I think because this case has so little actual evidence to go off, the time that has passed, the number of people that have died in the meantime, and the metric s-ton of commentary online about the case, it's become very difficult to arrive at "original" information. I want to stress that I'm not suggesting that anything has been made up, or intentionally misused, etc. Rather, that it has been so complicated over time that some things have been lost or blurred.
My issue lies with the order of trauma - and how it's approached in this sub (as well as really everywhere, I guess).
I previously made a statement (and granted, I didn't include the quote "this is my opinion" along with it - that I believe the head trauma came after strangulation. Both contributed to her death.
My comment was removed - and I've come to understand that people think that the "majority" of "experts" agree on that she was hit in the head first and then strangled. This was pointed out to me in a friendly way and directed to this post included in the wiki entitled: Medical opinions on JonBenet's injuries:Medical opinions on JonBenet's injuries.
So... I went through the list. It seems as though this list largely focuses on the possible sexual trauma (that most seem to agree with according to that list). But that's not what I'm curious about. I'm curious about the timing of the trauma to the head and strangulation.
Feel free to visit that post, then return here to see my updated findings:
| Dr. | Injury Sequence | Context |
|---|---|---|
| Dr. Vincent Di Maio | None | The quote being floated around is from a 1997 out of print Rocky Mt News issue, and despite their fantastic archival collection - his quote is nowhere to be found. |
| Dr. Michael Doberon | None | He agrees with the autopsy report - and makes no mention of the timing. He offered his opinion in 2002 in a pathology report. |
| Dr. Todd C. Grey | Head -> Strangulation, no mention of time | "The strangulation is probably the last event," Grey said. "The pattern of injury to her neck and the hemorrhaging indicates she's alive at the beginning of that process. "This wasn't a gentle killing. This kid was fighting." - https://extras.denverpost.com/news/jon111.htm |
| Dr. Tom Henry | Head -> Strangulation, ~15m | Autopsy consultor Tom Henry substantiates this hypothesis. He believes JonBenet may have survived unconscious for 15 minutes after an initial blow to the head before being strangled. "The fact that she's got this extensive injury described as a blood clot in the scalp indicates a little longer period of time that she had to survive ... a little more blood pumping under pressure for a longer period of time," he said. - https://www.foxnews.com/story/jonbenet-the-search-for-truth-part-iii |
| Dr. Leigh Hlavaty | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma - also wasn't a Pathologist until 2011. |
| Dr. David Jones | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma - is a psychiatrist, not a pathologist. |
| Dr. Robert Kirschner | Head -> Strangulation? | “And – contrary to Wecht’s assessment – Kirschner believes the head injury occurred before the strangulation.” - This was the only quote I could find, and it's not from him, it's from the reporter. - https://www.dailycamera.com/1997/08/14/jonbenet-autopsy-fails-to-pinpoint-time-of-death/ |
| Dr. Richard Krugman | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma - is a pediatrician, not a pathologist. |
| Dr. John McCann | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma - is a pediatrician, not a pathologist. |
| Dr. James Monteleone | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma - is a pediatrician, not a pathologist. |
| Dr. Virginia Rau | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma - now disgraced, lost job in numerous counties. |
| Dr. Lucy B. Rorke | Head -> Strangulation | Kolar states in his book that it is her opinion that could be 45m-2hours prior to strangulation with some funky wording and no quotes. Image of page: https://i.imgur.com/Hi5Pyul.png |
| Dr. Andrew Sirotnak | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma - is a pediatrician, not a pathologist. |
| Dr. Werner Spitz | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma. |
| Dr. Lokman Sung | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma - interesting thread here though: https://www.reddit.com/r/JonBenetRamsey/comments/1ekzliw/fact_checking_a_normal_family_podcasts_claims_on/ |
| Dr. Cyril Wecht | Strangulation -> Head | https://i.imgur.com/cor2cAb.png (page from my book) |
| Charles G. Wilber | ? | No idea who this guy is - can't find a thing about him. |
| Dr. Ronald Wright | ? | Cannot find any sort of information regarding order of trauma. |
Ok, so.
It's important to mention here... the autopsy makes no determination of which act occurred first. It establishes that they both resulted in her death.
So - the one person who actually autopsied the body makes no determination of one over the other - and no one else sees the body. Everyone from there on out is working off his report and images.
Dr Grey states that she was alive while being strangled - but makes no mention of why he thinks it came last other than that she was alive when it happened.
Dr. Henry thinks there could have been 15 minutes between, with the head trauma coming first - which he thinks because of blood clotting... which happens within 2-3 minutes. There is also no other mention of anyone else claiming the existing of a large blood clot.
Dr. Kirschner I can't find a direct quote from - and makes no mention of why he would believe the head trauma came first.
Dr. Wecht thinks they happened close together... like the autopsy report concluded, and Dr. Meyer originally wrote. It's stated clearly, I highlighted the page in my book: https://i.imgur.com/cor2cAb.png.
Everyone else I can't find anything for - or they aren't Pathologists. I understand they were most likely included on the previous list because of the involvement of the sexual trauma scenario.
So - what I'm ultimately trying to get across here is - there is no expert consensus regarding this issue. For multiple reasons - not even including the above list.
- This case never went to court. A judge nor jury heard testimony in open court regarding this matter. No "expert" was evaluated in this case - certainly not a single one of those mentioned above.
- Every "expert" outside of the actual pathologist that performed the autopsy (Meyer) - was either hired or brought in by one side or the other.
- The only guy to perform the full autopsy never said anything about one coming before the other - nor demonstrating in his report that it would be obvious to discern either way.
- Not knowing this answer to an absolute fact is one of the major areas of issue with this case in the first place, if investigators knew which came first - we'd know far more about the actual crime that took place giving them more latitude to lean in. But we don't. Hence the questions.
I hope this is approved and finds this sub well. I just think there needs to be a bit more caution paid to the concepts of "well the experts agree" stuff. And PLEASE, if you have any information that I can update this with, please let me know. I'm happy to do so!